design quality - Forum - Virtual Popstar

Solar
National Star

Solar wrote:
i feel like our community on virtual popstar rarely has an active discussion where ppl really have different views on a matter, which is awesome!
there's one topic though that does seem to be reoccurring within the community, which is designs getting rejected because the quality isn't good enough by DT standards.

i'm not completely sure if i'm the right person to make a thread about this issue, but i feel like we have seen this discussion come and go multiple times this year, where it can sometimes derail because of passionate replies from both sides. it might feel like there's no satisfying conclusion that we as a community all support, which is unfortunate and keeps the issue alive, so it returns again and again.

i was thinking it might be good to take a moment where we evaluate together why the DT standard is the way it is - i feel like if the reasoning behind the high standard can be explained well, ppl with rejected designs (myself included) can feel a bit more at peace with the current situation. or alternatively, maybe us nondesigners can explain to DT why the standard might feel too high, or that we as players would love to see some sets in game that have been rejected.

let me know if it's not my place to open a thread like this! i just feel like it would be very helpful to have this discussion openly instead of avoiding it or shunning players who talk about the concerns they're having, so we can keep our community warm & welcoming like it is 99% of the time

Teabag
World Famous

Teabag wrote:
i admire your bravery

Klavier
Minister of Pop

Klavier wrote:
im not proofreading this and typing on my phone while talking to my sister so this probably sounds messy, forgive me lol

respectfully i don't think it should be an "open" discussion where people who don't have the full picture get to misunderstand and get the wrong idea, especially because we have already done it several times and there is no point in repeating the same points over and over again. and i mean in depth and properly. it has been "resolved" before but it keeps getting brought up because, frankly, there are some people who don't want to play the part in the rejection process. which i GET. but it doesn't mean that dt has done wrong. it SHOULD be talked about, but the rejected person should be coming TO DT to talk about it!! otherwise they can't help!!!

it's not fair to say that anyone is avoiding it because that has never been the problem to begin with. i understand that it can look that way from an outsiders perspective when all you see is people being disappointed that their designs are rejected, that they're not getting proper feedback, but you're getting the wrong picture because you ARE an outsider in the situation. dt is not avoiding people who have concerns, but the concerns are not being directed TO dt. the concerns are being raised in public threads and framing dt as some kinda bad guy when we have only done our part in the process with no followup. you are very much allowed to be disappointed and discouraged when your designs are rejected, becsuee most dt members have experienced it and it sucks, and as dt members have said multiple times whenever this keeps happening, we are aware that feedback isn't always straightforwardly easy to understand because it isn't always easy to explain things from your own perspective in a way that will be immediately clear to someone else. the person writing your feedback might not be a good fit for you. we are volunteers and most people don't want to write feedback because it's hard ti do well. we have said that you can ask people more directly for exact and personal feedback in a back and forth conversation instead. dt isn't avoiding people. but the problem isn't being taken TO us, or at least talked about with respect and understanding.

like, it isn't an issue of "dt keeps nitpicking and saying my design is bad even though it's fine". if you submit an item and dt says "hey you should try to work more on this item", and you disagree or don't see the issue yourself, so you go into public forums and say "dt rejected me and i'm gonna stop designing now" instead of even trying to work with dt in figuring things out, then you are being unfair and giving people an unfair understanding of dt and the process. it is just the process. you night not see the "problems" with an item that more experienced designers see, and that's ok, and you deserve to get the help and guidance needed to figure out how to see it and how to fix it. but you have to play your own part in that. you have to ask. you have to be KIND and respectful and not frame the process as anything other than what it is.

outsiders get a very skewed view on these situations because often it is about a single item being rejected for something small, which is a SMALL issue, but it gets focused in on and pointed at as if it's some big thing. as an outsider you see it and think "why is dt making this small thing into such a big issue?" but that isn't the case. it is a small issue, and dt isn't making it a big one. it starts to look like a big issue when it is taken to public forums without the full context. the standard is not crazy high. one rejected item is no more than that. one rejected item in a good set just means it needs to be pushed a bit to be consistent

dt members disagree on quality checks often so it is not an issue of cherry picking or singling anyone out due to personal preference or personal opinions on a person, by the way. i will personally call people out if they ever make some weird and biased critique. bias in voting has been implied in the past so i need to keep pointing out that it's absolutely not the case because whenever this gets brought up again, i worry that people will start to make up conspiracies again.

i said this the last time this was talked about in detail. the feedback system is not ideal for actual feedback. because most people need an active conversation to get the feedback needed. the fact that the system is a single response and no built in follow up option is BAD!!!! it is bad as a system. we know that too. feedback sent out is also not written by every single dt member in unison, so it's entirely possible that the feedback you get would ve nitpicked BY other members if we all actually did this as our jobs and looked over everything in detail. but you can still contact dt members for more detailed feedback. please ask if you don't understand. literally absolutely no single dt member is trying to gatekeep or be a dickhead. the system is not ideal but you can literally reach out for feedback. let us help . pls. i believe that the feedback being sent out should state this as well and there should be less of a "wall". it should be more personal, and it should mention that you are welcome to message us for more detailed feedback. i agree that it comes off as cold and flat and that should be changed, but that doesn't mean that going to public threads and honestly guilt tripping is not the move. please ask for better feedback when the feedback sucks, but don't make dt members look like mean girls when they are just using the system we have . do i sound stupid.

Klavier
Minister of Pop

Klavier wrote:
legit pls just ask for feedback i think msot dt members would prefer a direct conversation over single message and no followup anyway

Private
Youtube Star

devilcake wrote:
points at what klavier said

Private
Youtube Star

devilcake wrote:
also genuinely dont understand what it is that would need to be looked over? its either more feedback needed, but the feed back seems mostly not appreciated n sometimes it just feels like some people get annoyed with u for giving feedback and doubting ur skills which is honestly not fun and feels bad n makes me not want to give more feedback

or just approve sets that dont fit quality standards? which it feels like is what some people want just to have their items ig but??? its good for the site to have a quality standard n i think most users want to use high quality items (but would turn a blind eye to their own less quality item, which i get becuse fun to wear ur own item and all)

Private
Living Legend

lain wrote:
I'm not in dt so I can't really speak for them, but I'd still like to express my thoughts around this because I used to get my designs rejected too. The feedback I got helped me a lot though, and I ended up becoming a member of dt for a little while because I improved with their help

DT approves or rejects based on quality from a technical standpoint, and if there is something they think can be improved they will tell you that. They can spot what needs more work, which might not be obvious to everyone else, but it's part of why they're in the team to begin with. It might feel "nitpicky" but it's just ensuring that the items that are put in game is of the best quality within your own capabilities. A set can be really good, but still get rejected because one of the items needs a bit more work. A rejection doesn't mean that your design is bad or won't ever be accepted, it's more like a "Hey, this could need some improvement and then it will be approved!". Some designs might need more feedback than that, but it's still not a permanent rejection. Being able to take constructive criticism is a fundamental part of art in general.

This has been a discussion several times, and I remember during the last time that we came to the conclusion that if the feedback is too vague - ask more questions! Please don't be afraid to ask dt to elaborate or explain it in a different way.

However, what you do with the feedback given is entirely up to you.

Solar
National Star

Solar wrote:

Klavier wrote:
ix

deleting ur message from this quote for readability

i think u bring up some very good points that maybe isn't super clear to a lot of ppl sending in designs!! i know i once got feedback on a design and was very discouraged because ihad no idea how to actually do what i was told to do. so i sent a follow up message and the dt member responding gave me a very thorough explanation on how to apply the feedback i had gotten, which made me understand way better what the problem was and how i could change it. (i didn't because it was a halloween set and halloween had passed, but the feedback was really good)

so perhaps this could be something that could be communicated more clearly, that its okay to also ask dt to provide a more detailed explanation? because i know i was very hesitant on asking for more feedback bc i know everything is on voluntary basis & i was scared of being super annoying and stuff... idk maybe thats just a me issue though lol

Private
Living Legend

lain wrote:

Solar wrote:

Klavier wrote:
ix

deleting ur message from this quote for readability

i think u bring up some very good points that maybe isn't super clear to a lot of ppl sending in designs!! i know i once got feedback on a design and was very discouraged because ihad no idea how to actually do what i was told to do. so i sent a follow up message and the dt member responding gave me a very thorough explanation on how to apply the feedback i had gotten, which made me understand way better what the problem was and how i could change it. (i didn't because it was a halloween set and halloween had passed, but the feedback was really good)

so perhaps this could be something that could be communicated more clearly, that its okay to also ask dt to provide a more detailed explanation? because i know i was very hesitant on asking for more feedback bc i know everything is on voluntary basis & i was scared of being super annoying and stuff... idk maybe thats just a me issue though lol

I have to admit that I'm a bit confused now, because it has been communicated pretty clearly before? Dt has several times said that they want people to ask them directly for more help and feedback, this was even brought up the last time

I fear I'm not understanding the point of this particular discussion now

Solar
National Star

Solar wrote:

devilcake wrote:
also genuinely dont understand what it is that would need to be looked over? its either more feedback needed, but the feed back seems mostly not appreciated n sometimes it just feels like some people get annoyed with u for giving feedback and doubting ur skills which is honestly not fun and feels bad n makes me not want to give more feedback

or just approve sets that dont fit quality standards? which it feels like is what some people want just to have their items ig but??? its good for the site to have a quality standard n i think most users want to use high quality items (but would turn a blind eye to their own less quality item, which i get becuse fun to wear ur own item and all)

gahh i typed out a whole reply but i refreshed the page accidentally ;;

the gist of what i wanted to say is; i hope this hasnt been lost in my first post but this thread wasnt made to ask DT specifically to change things, more so to idk talk with each other about a topic that has been a recurring one & find out what specifically is difficult about it for both DT and ppl having their designs rejected

but i think i have missed a previous thread about specifically this, since klavier, lain and you are saying that this has basically been said before

i fear i may have libra'd too close to the sun

Private
Queen of Pop

Eliah wrote:
I think Klavier said it all perfectly.

Giving feedback truly can be really difficult sometimes, because I know what I’d edit to make it approvable, but it’s not always easy to explain to the designer how to do that in a way that comes across perfectly.
None of us are rejecting your items simply because we can and want to be dicks about it, we simply want it to look the best in a way we know you can achieve. Sometimes all you need is for example, to add contrast to the shading, or remove some stray pixels for it to be approved, and sometimes it does genuinely need more work, but it doesn’t mean that what you’ve made is ugly or bad, it simply needs some additional love to refine the work.

it might sound a bit rude, but it gets a bit tiresome to me personally when people only complain when given feedback, like we are some sort of villains that are doing everything we can to fuck you over in your design process, when that is so far from the truth. I’d love to help anyone that has questions about their feedback, you’re also more than welcome to message me for my personal feedback before sending in your design. Because I know the feeling of having to be rejected and revise several times, and I know it can be very disappointing and discouraging to have designs rejected, especially the same one more than once. But we always try to include the best possible feedback we can, and if users refuse to listen to that, there truly is nothing we can do to help you and you will continue to be disappointed going forward.

Solar
National Star

Solar wrote:

Eliah wrote:
I think Klavier said it all perfectly.

Giving feedback truly can be really difficult sometimes, because I know what I’d edit to make it approvable, but it’s not always easy to explain to the designer how to do that in a way that comes across perfectly.
None of us are rejecting your items simply because we can and want to be dicks about it, we simply want it to look the best in a way we know you can achieve. Sometimes all you need is for example, to add contrast to the shading, or remove some stray pixels for it to be approved, and sometimes it does genuinely need more work, but it doesn’t mean that what you’ve made is ugly or bad, it simply needs some additional love to refine the work.

it might sound a bit rude, but it gets a bit tiresome to me personally when people only complain when given feedback, like we are some sort of villains that are doing everything we can to fuck you over in your design process, when that is so far from the truth. I’d love to help anyone that has questions about their feedback, you’re also more than welcome to message me for my personal feedback before sending in your design. Because I know the feeling of having to be rejected and revise several times, and I know it can be very disappointing and discouraging to have designs rejected, especially the same one more than once. But we always try to include the best possible feedback we can, and if users refuse to listen to that, there truly is nothing we can do to help you and you will continue to be disappointed going forward.

this i can definitely understand, you're all doing this on voluntary basis & w love for the site/designing, and it sucks to be made out as the bad guy

Private
Queen of Pop

Eliah wrote:

Solar wrote:

Eliah wrote:
I think Klavier said it all perfectly.

Giving feedback truly can be really difficult sometimes, because I know what I’d edit to make it approvable, but it’s not always easy to explain to the designer how to do that in a way that comes across perfectly.
None of us are rejecting your items simply because we can and want to be dicks about it, we simply want it to look the best in a way we know you can achieve. Sometimes all you need is for example, to add contrast to the shading, or remove some stray pixels for it to be approved, and sometimes it does genuinely need more work, but it doesn’t mean that what you’ve made is ugly or bad, it simply needs some additional love to refine the work.

it might sound a bit rude, but it gets a bit tiresome to me personally when people only complain when given feedback, like we are some sort of villains that are doing everything we can to fuck you over in your design process, when that is so far from the truth. I’d love to help anyone that has questions about their feedback, you’re also more than welcome to message me for my personal feedback before sending in your design. Because I know the feeling of having to be rejected and revise several times, and I know it can be very disappointing and discouraging to have designs rejected, especially the same one more than once. But we always try to include the best possible feedback we can, and if users refuse to listen to that, there truly is nothing we can do to help you and you will continue to be disappointed going forward.

this i can definitely understand, you're all doing this on voluntary basis & w love for the site/designing, and it sucks to be made out as the bad guy

Truly, I didn’t become a designer or better at designing by not listening to the feedback I was given and it’s just a shame when people refuse to listen and then go claiming that we are only accepting things that we like personally and only specific styles, that we punish those who have more unique styles.