5 am philosophical debate - Forum

Chat0yant
World Famous

Chat0yant wrote:

ouch wrote:
I pirate movies/tv shows I can't find elsewhere, but not books (actually except 1 book the other day because its literally impossible to find a physical copy that isn't sold for 200$+ and it wasn't available on kindle)

See, that's one of the biggest temptations to pirate for me. For example, I would LOVE to play the first harvest moon game because that franchise has been such a big deal in my childhood. But it's so old it's either "buy questionable copy for $1k on craigslists" or "pirate a rom."

I know that seems like a clear cut "do it" but... like i''m not entitled to play it just because i want to so.... the reasoning of "i want it and can't get it so it's ok to steal" [and yes, whether it's really stealing is another debate in this thread] seems rather petty when i think that way for me (not saying i'm judging you for your decision, that's just how my feelings feel when i think about that).

Chat0yant
World Famous

Chat0yant wrote:
at devilcakes post, it's to long to keep quoting... /hj

Why theft is wrong: I'm not sure how to define it without sounding stupid but theft is the unfair acquisition of something that doesnt belong to you. It isn't fair. The fact that whoever owns it "isn't losing anything" (maybe, see remain's post response) doesn't change that you are acquiring it with unfair advantage or means. So maybe it's "better" morally, than actually stealing that takes something away but it's still breaking social and legal laws simply for your own gratification.

Also, the argument that shoplifting is ok if you are struggling because society is unfair so it's society's fault... kind of sounds like it could slippery slope into something like "it's ok i raped her because my girfriend broke up with me because society has unfair expectations on men and i shouldn't have to be alone" kind of cope.
/hyp

(is this unecessary b/c my next sentence?)
Obviously that's an extreme but... i don't really want to build my values on a slippery slope arguments like that... I would say that is a better reason to shoplift than like a dare by friends or adrenaline rush but is less wrong = not wrong?
/rh/rt, or we can discuss, either way

As for the stooping to their level paragraph... I know it's naive and idealistic to think everything will just magically change because it is unjust but... In some ways, i think i would rather be an naive idealist than a cynical, numb, and uncaring anarchist [not calling you that, but as an extreme label]. The world has enough hate, I don't really want to use hate to fight hate (or evil to fight evil, even if it's a "lesser evil".). Is that possible? maybe. Does extremist behavior/beliefs sometimes lead to positive changes? yes it has sometimes. But i don't think it's my place to decide "it's bad enough for me to abandon my values now" "It's bad enough to do evil to fight evil". Maybe my values will be considered and updated as to what is "evil" but I also do believe in good and evil so i can't just "turn off value judgements" personally.

Also and again, I don't think i've said anyone that i'm actively judging or stopping people who pirate? I'm not actively protesting piracy just having a discussion about my and others' feelings about it? I've never told my friends once that they shouldn't be pirating. I've had this discussion before a little with them about the moral/philosophical aspect, but I said at the beginning that I'm not really judging them for it because it is such a complicated/grey issue. I respect you a lot more for doing it as a "protest" than the average kid who just "wants stuff and doesn't want to pay" reasoning. I *might* judge those who never even stop to think about it and just do it for the "everyone's doing it, who cares" reasoning, but idk if I would care enough to do anything to speak up or stop them even, unless maybe it was, like you and others have said, hurting and indie artist. or a similar equivalent.

/nm

and yes, i looked up tone indicator guide finally

/lh. now i can use emojis AND tone indicators as tone indicators and be a childish, geriatric digital native all at the same time👍

Olympus
Popstar

Olympus wrote:
I believe in sailing the high seas. it's controversial practice, but the more that streaming services have just decided they're buying titles and then cancelling/no longer streaming them + making them defunct and essentially lost media, the more i don't particularly care what anyone is pirating.

The practice of buying someones intellectual property and shelving it from the public domain on a whim and being able to make sure it doesn't see the light of day is unethical to me, but that's not stopping these companies from doing it.

Piracy serves as a preservation practice as well. as the days go on, they are randomly pulling articles, songs, movies, books, things people wouldn't even think to save because we assume it will always be available , in the long run, it serves no one to have zero copies and access to all of these things that are out of print + digital only.

Good pirates support in other ways as well, and a lot even will buy the thing that they pirated, it's not just taking stuff and having no regard for the creators.

Olympus
Popstar

Olympus wrote:

Chat0yant wrote:

Also, the argument that shoplifting is ok if you are struggling because society is unfair so it's society's fault... kind of sounds like it could slippery slope into something like "it's ok i raped her because my girfriend broke up with me because society has unfair expectations on men and i shouldn't have to be alone" kind of cope.

Okay so, these are not the same thing, at all!!

Private
National Star

Dew wrote:

Chat0yant wrote:

Also, the argument that shoplifting is ok if you are struggling because society is unfair so it's society's fault... kind of sounds like it could slippery slope into something like "it's ok i raped her because my girfriend broke up with me because society has unfair expectations on men and i shouldn't have to be alone" kind of cope.

Chat0yant
World Famous

Chat0yant wrote:

Olympus wrote:

Chat0yant wrote:

Also, the argument that shoplifting is ok if you are struggling because society is unfair so it's society's fault... kind of sounds like it could slippery slope into something like "it's ok i raped her because my girfriend broke up with me because society has unfair expectations on men and i shouldn't have to be alone" kind of cope.

Okay so, these are not the same thing, at all!!

That is why i qualified that with "Obviously that's an extreme" in the original post. It has the same argument format though "Society is unjust to me because A so it justifies me to take B". Obviously the rape example is mega terrible and the stealing because in need is barely wrong, so to speak, considering needs, motivation, lasting repercussions, etc.

Private
World Famous

remains wrote:
why would you ever think writing and posting that "hypothetical" would be a smart idea.
jesus fucking christ

Private
World Famous

remains wrote:
clearly there's some deep rooted "all crime is bad" and "doing any kind of unlawful action makes you a bad person" way of thinking in your brain and im real sorry for you

Olympus
Popstar

Olympus wrote:

Chat0yant wrote:

Olympus wrote:

Chat0yant wrote:

Also, the argument that shoplifting is ok if you are struggling because society is unfair so it's society's fault... kind of sounds like it could slippery slope into something like "it's ok i raped her because my girfriend broke up with me because society has unfair expectations on men and i shouldn't have to be alone" kind of cope.

Okay so, these are not the same thing, at all!!

That is why i qualified that with "Obviously that's an extreme" in the original post. It has the same argument format though "Society is unjust to me because A so it justifies me to take B". Obviously the rape example is mega terrible and the stealing because in need is barely wrong, so to speak, considering needs, motivation, lasting repercussions, etc.

Yes, I saw that...but it is a false equivalence.

Private
World Famous

remains wrote:
"downloading a movie online really is a slipper slope to rape and murder if you think about it"

Chat0yant
World Famous

Chat0yant wrote:
OK new hypothetical to replace the one from several posts before:

"I'm not paying for my food at a restaurant because the service/food sucked, so they don't deserve my money"

"I'm not returning my movie to the movie rental store because their prices are a scam and i shouldn't have to pay that"

"I'm going to commit tax fraud because the government takes too much of my money already"

"It's ok to take a few produce from the produce section at the grocery store or supermarket because it's just a free sample"

"I'm going to buy (or sell) knockoff goods because the real ones aren't worth the price"

"I'm going to steal office supplies from work or slack off at my job because they don't respect me enough"

"I'm going to cheat on my exams because the teachers don't do a good enough job explaining the content or grade too harshly"

I assume these examples cover enough disciplines to make people think about if they agree/don't agree with all of them despite using the same argument style (I deserve B because society/business is unfair because A) while being less personal or controversial.

I was referring to the argument style described in these examples. I was not saying that they are the same degree of wrong. I was discussing this style of justification (I am wrong so I can do whatever I feel like justifies myself). I am sorry for writing the first extreme example I thought of, I obviously do not think they are the same kind of crime or that 99.99% of people are going to take the argument that far. I will try and be more clear or use less controversial examples in the future.

Chat0yant
World Famous

Chat0yant wrote:

Olympus wrote:

Chat0yant wrote:

Olympus wrote:

Okay so, these are not the same thing, at all!!

That is why i qualified that with "Obviously that's an extreme" in the original post. It has the same argument format though "Society is unjust to me because A so it justifies me to take B". Obviously the rape example is mega terrible and the stealing because in need is barely wrong, so to speak, considering needs, motivation, lasting repercussions, etc.

Yes, I saw that...but it is a false equivalence.

i'm sorry i used a bad example. obviously I do not think and they are not equivalent.

It is the definition of a slippery slope that it could lead to or be used to justify an extreme example which is why i picked an extreme example. My original point was thus that I didn't like using that kind of argument (Society is unjust in A way so it entitles me to B) as a basis for changing my beliefs or worldview

Chat0yant
World Famous

Chat0yant wrote:
I am sorry that I used a controversial, painful, extreme example without considering the nature and content of that example. I am sorry I implied they were in any way equivalent or correlated.

/srs

Chat0yant
World Famous

Chat0yant wrote:

remains wrote:
clearly there's some deep rooted "all crime is bad" and "doing any kind of unlawful action makes you a bad person" way of thinking in your brain and im real sorry for you

some laws are obviously unjust and some reasons to break laws are definitely grey/complex compared to others. But who decides when it's justified?

Olympus pointed out that some pirates are good pirates and give back to creators, buy their merchandise, or use pirating for less "self serving" reasons (like preservation). So it's ok to break the law if you do something good with it? I.e. theft is ok if you are robin hood/doing it for others? Lots of people use that argument (on all sorts of sides of the political spectrum) to justify what they are doing, illegally or just morally questionable. So is it ok if it aligns with your political/religious/personal convictions?(/nbh) Or as long as it's neutral or not a major issue?

Lots of things are complicated and people have different viewpoints on those kind of issues. I did not make this thread to say anyone is evil that has different beliefs or that I can't consider the reasons they have given for those beliefs, so I'm sorry if I've implied that to anyone. I genuinely just wanted to have a discourse with random people about an issue that I was thinking about after some 3am youtube scrolling. I wasn't trying to attack anyone (including with my "i am a bitch and the smart is not in me" example that I am sorry for using)

Private
Youtube Star

devilcake wrote:
I shant be arguing about piracy any longer because clearly you are too stuck in lawfulness=morality.

your way of thinking is very complicit with capitalism and oppression and this will color my view of you going forward until otherwise proven. Do with that what you will.