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Babel wrote:
I also disagree on the sports angle - but I think that's easier, because people can compete neutrally, which isn't really a case for a song competition for a specific part of the world.
I'm also just thinking about the mess Eurovision will be - because this is a controversial thing, and we will probably both hear boos and see protests/signs under Eurovision. This will not be neutral in any way, and it's important to be mindful of that too, especially when people talk about withdrawing from the competition.
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I agree with you on it being a weird way the rejections have been handled, and it's a fine weird line they're walking with the politics thing. I don't think Israel will withdraw - it's easier to play a victim if you've been rejected, and even it that isn't the intention, it'll also be an easier way to handle it in general, because some people might argue that you know you've done something wrong, if you withdraw due to a conflict/controversy.
Aske wrote:
but esc remains, on paper, a competition that broadcasters take part in. and while they do so under their home countrys name and flag, how are you going to go after an independent media institution for what their government is up to? unless they are aligned with the government and functions as a their mouth piece, like the russian broadcasters, you really just cant.
the delegation they send functions as a cultural ambassador, they cannot be held accountable for the actions of their state and/or military. a countrys name and flag represents so much more than the state. by calling for a boycot in the context of esc you're calling for a cultural boycot, and maybe some people are comfortable with that, but i sure as hell am not. it's like refusing athletes to compete in international sports events because of which flag they are bearing. i dont think event organisers should cater to public opinion, or take peoples ability to tell things apart into consideration, they should be following their own framework and be consistant about it. that's how i see it at least, but i understand your way of looking at it too, it's tricky
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if they want out they can just withdraw, it would be a much better look and a desicion everyone would be understanding of. they're actively trying to take part, and in a way, i'd think it was especially imporant to them to be present rn, instead of being pushed out and isolated. but who knows honestly.
allegedly they did submit a second song, despite saying they wouldnt, but 'dance forever' was rejected too. i genuinely do not see the any issues with that song, if theres a political message it is incredibly vague, theres no way ebu can be rejecting that while having allowed songs like 1944 by jamala and mama šč by let 3 into the competition, i wonder if they're just looking for excuses atp to avoid controversy or if there's smn else we dont know about yet
It is extremely tricky! I also see the point you're making, and I honestly also think it's important to say that people aren't their governments. I just find it hard to make that distinction, no matter how apolitical an institution is trying to be. When looking at the votes in general, we also see a heavy bias between some countries, which I also think stems from something political. Babel wrote:
While I very much agree with you on the participants not being the country, the simple fact will always be, that these people will have to discuss the conflicts at home while participating in interviews (to some degree) and often will feel some kind of pushback from the audience (like Russia during Krim invasion) and while the latter isn't okay (in theory) I honestly get it, because both people and the other participants are rather outspoken about controversies and have a harder time separating them from Eurovision.
I do absolutely agree on the people of controversial countries deserving a space to celebrate their culture and country too, but in a competition, where they're tightly bound with the country it's harder to make space for it, because an audience will never be able to separate.
I do agree on the thing Israel is doing this year though, and to some degree also think it's a good choice from them to keep it in politics, because it takes the hard choice from EBU
i see your point abt legitimacy, theres definetly some truth to that. Aske wrote:
on one hand it seems paradoxical for a country currently involved in an armed conflict or otherwise conducting themselves in a way that flies in the face of everything esc stands for to be included in a contest created to celebrated peace and unity, but esc really isnt a contest between states and contestants arent government representatives. in theory at least, in some cases thats probably debatable but i digress.
politics can never be fully removed when country names are involved and when the winning country gets to host next years competition, fair enough, but just because a state is up to no good does not mean that said countrys public broadcaster is not allegible to take part. that depends on the broadcaster. it also doesnt mean that the country, people and culture is not worthy of celebration, which should be the most obvious thing ever but somehow it's not.
so in the case of israel, as long as KAN is an ebu member allegible for participation, they will be and should be allowed to take part. that goes for belarus and azerbaijan and whoever else people have issues with too.
but as it turns out KAN has made it very simple this year, and i hope they dont let it pass as theyve done w ukraine in past
theyre fully aware that they crossed a line w this and the fact they they are doing it anyways and plan on refusing to go along w it if ebu requests a change is fucking pathetic im sorry, play by the rules or face the consequenses bye
While I to some degree do agree, I also still think it's important to remember the legitimacy a "non-political" competition can give a country. I think it's fair to say that people can't participate and represent a country that is in trouble with international law, as long as it's done equally for all countries, and not just the ones getting media attention.on one hand it seems paradoxical for a country currently involved in an armed conflict or otherwise conducting themselves in a way that flies in the face of everything esc stands for to be included in a contest created to celebrated peace and unity, but esc really isnt a contest between states and contestants arent government representatives. in theory at least, in some cases thats probably debatable but i digress.
politics can never be fully removed when country names are involved and when the winning country gets to host next years competition, fair enough, but just because a state is up to no good does not mean that said countrys public broadcaster is not allegible to take part. that depends on the broadcaster. it also doesnt mean that the country, people and culture is not worthy of celebration, which should be the most obvious thing ever but somehow it's not.
so in the case of israel, as long as KAN is an ebu member allegible for participation, they will be and should be allowed to take part. that goes for belarus and azerbaijan and whoever else people have issues with too.
but as it turns out KAN has made it very simple this year, and i hope they dont let it pass as theyve done w ukraine in past
theyre fully aware that they crossed a line w this and the fact they they are doing it anyways and plan on refusing to go along w it if ebu requests a change is fucking pathetic im sorry, play by the rules or face the consequenses bye
While I very much agree with you on the participants not being the country, the simple fact will always be, that these people will have to discuss the conflicts at home while participating in interviews (to some degree) and often will feel some kind of pushback from the audience (like Russia during Krim invasion) and while the latter isn't okay (in theory) I honestly get it, because both people and the other participants are rather outspoken about controversies and have a harder time separating them from Eurovision.
I do absolutely agree on the people of controversial countries deserving a space to celebrate their culture and country too, but in a competition, where they're tightly bound with the country it's harder to make space for it, because an audience will never be able to separate.
I do agree on the thing Israel is doing this year though, and to some degree also think it's a good choice from them to keep it in politics, because it takes the hard choice from EBU
but esc remains, on paper, a competition that broadcasters take part in. and while they do so under their home countrys name and flag, how are you going to go after an independent media institution for what their government is up to? unless they are aligned with the government and functions as a their mouth piece, like the russian broadcasters, you really just cant.
the delegation they send functions as a cultural ambassador, they cannot be held accountable for the actions of their state and/or military. a countrys name and flag represents so much more than the state. by calling for a boycot in the context of esc you're calling for a cultural boycot, and maybe some people are comfortable with that, but i sure as hell am not. it's like refusing athletes to compete in international sports events because of which flag they are bearing. i dont think event organisers should cater to public opinion, or take peoples ability to tell things apart into consideration, they should be following their own framework and be consistant about it. that's how i see it at least, but i understand your way of looking at it too, it's tricky
---
if they want out they can just withdraw, it would be a much better look and a desicion everyone would be understanding of. they're actively trying to take part, and in a way, i'd think it was especially imporant to them to be present rn, instead of being pushed out and isolated. but who knows honestly.
allegedly they did submit a second song, despite saying they wouldnt, but 'dance forever' was rejected too. i genuinely do not see the any issues with that song, if theres a political message it is incredibly vague, theres no way ebu can be rejecting that while having allowed songs like 1944 by jamala and mama šč by let 3 into the competition, i wonder if they're just looking for excuses atp to avoid controversy or if there's smn else we dont know about yet
I also disagree on the sports angle - but I think that's easier, because people can compete neutrally, which isn't really a case for a song competition for a specific part of the world.
I'm also just thinking about the mess Eurovision will be - because this is a controversial thing, and we will probably both hear boos and see protests/signs under Eurovision. This will not be neutral in any way, and it's important to be mindful of that too, especially when people talk about withdrawing from the competition.
____
I agree with you on it being a weird way the rejections have been handled, and it's a fine weird line they're walking with the politics thing. I don't think Israel will withdraw - it's easier to play a victim if you've been rejected, and even it that isn't the intention, it'll also be an easier way to handle it in general, because some people might argue that you know you've done something wrong, if you withdraw due to a conflict/controversy.
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