FT: Think without language? - Forum

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wug wrote:

Meowmere wrote:

Snusmumrikken wrote:

BloomCissi wrote:
This was one of the things I was thinking about when I came up with this topic. It's really hard for me to imagine how it's like not to have words to express your thoughts.

But they do have words

it is similar to a language that have children, like something created by their own

is it tho

Ad0xa
World famous

ad0xa wrote:

luminescence wrote:
I'm not bilingual but I studied three years in English (which is not my native language), and now my verbal thoughts are sometimes a mix of Finnish and English words and it's kinda frustrating, especially when I'm supposed to say out loud what I'm thinking. I do it unconsciously.

a lot of swedish people are like this now too!
I hear it at the buss and in stores and everywhere.

and I think like that too. I even dream like that.

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BloomCissi wrote:

Snusmumrikken wrote:
My thoughts are almost exclusively verbal, any other processes need careful attention and concentration to work. I think in multiple languages and with only one voice, I cannot understand how people can "think" or "imagine" another voice that's pretty much a mysterium to me.
Whether it is possible to think without language is very complicated, a part of me want to say no, it's hard for me to think of a scenario with a person who thinks completely without any element of language, the only possible way that could happen given all the abstract things humans imagine, experience, feel etc. I would assume that if you think in numbers?? Maybe?? But could numbers qualify as a type of language, in programming they talk about prog languages.
We do, however, have different ways of denoting words so given that some languages uses more abstract systems than what European languages can be claimed to use, such as logograms and stuff like that.. the most complicated of those combine several other entities.
Perhaps if you are able to think in colours, pictures, feelings, and smells it might to some extent be possible, but as language is such a fundamental skill and people without language seem to be severely impaired by that I would argue that for those who might not have any element of language in their thoughts.. it's probably, and likely limited.
What would be incredibly interesting is if people are able to think in the mentioned: colours, pictures, feelings, and smells, do they have a syntactic structure of this? Would it be possible to syntactically show how such thought processes would work, if so, is it really completely without language? If it proves the linguistic theory of Universal Grammar.. then it's arguably a type of language, but a type of language so removed from the forms of languages we have thus far mapped, in the mediums we have observed it: sign language, oral language, and written language.
They do use a lot of resources in psycholinguistics, so if some people think with a very different technique than the general public, we will probably discover that within the coming decades.

God I hope this isn't too long lmao.

I was hoping you would show up in this thread! I was reading this while doing some quick research into the topic: https://mcgovern.mit.edu/2019/05/02/ask-the-brain-can-we-think-without-language/ and I thought that was really interesting.

December
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December wrote:
i think in words, like my own voice. i'm swedish but i mostly think in english for some reason. probably because of movies and tv shows lol

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wug wrote:

luminescence wrote:
I'm not bilingual but I studied three years in English (which is not my native language), and now my verbal thoughts are sometimes a mix of Finnish and English words and it's kinda frustrating, especially when I'm supposed to say out loud what I'm thinking. I do it unconsciously.

Then you are bilingual. Sure not in the sense that having learnt two languages simultaneously from birth but you're still significantly capable in English, thus it's a bit shady to be like yeah I amn't bilingual.

Private
International star

wug wrote:

BloomCissi wrote:

Snusmumrikken wrote:
My thoughts are almost exclusively verbal, any other processes need careful attention and concentration to work. I think in multiple languages and with only one voice, I cannot understand how people can "think" or "imagine" another voice that's pretty much a mysterium to me.
Whether it is possible to think without language is very complicated, a part of me want to say no, it's hard for me to think of a scenario with a person who thinks completely without any element of language, the only possible way that could happen given all the abstract things humans imagine, experience, feel etc. I would assume that if you think in numbers?? Maybe?? But could numbers qualify as a type of language, in programming they talk about prog languages.
We do, however, have different ways of denoting words so given that some languages uses more abstract systems than what European languages can be claimed to use, such as logograms and stuff like that.. the most complicated of those combine several other entities.
Perhaps if you are able to think in colours, pictures, feelings, and smells it might to some extent be possible, but as language is such a fundamental skill and people without language seem to be severely impaired by that I would argue that for those who might not have any element of language in their thoughts.. it's probably, and likely limited.
What would be incredibly interesting is if people are able to think in the mentioned: colours, pictures, feelings, and smells, do they have a syntactic structure of this? Would it be possible to syntactically show how such thought processes would work, if so, is it really completely without language? If it proves the linguistic theory of Universal Grammar.. then it's arguably a type of language, but a type of language so removed from the forms of languages we have thus far mapped, in the mediums we have observed it: sign language, oral language, and written language.
They do use a lot of resources in psycholinguistics, so if some people think with a very different technique than the general public, we will probably discover that within the coming decades.

God I hope this isn't too long lmao.

I was hoping you would show up in this thread! I was reading this while doing some quick research into the topic: https://mcgovern.mit.edu/2019/05/02/ask-the-brain-can-we-think-without-language/ and I thought that was really interesting.

Anything about language and count me in lmao.
Even people with brain disorders (developed later in their life) have some kind of mental language despite not being capable of actually talking so.. hmm.. I think for a more complex thought system if anything, syntax must be present.

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BloomCissi wrote:

Snusmumrikken wrote:

BloomCissi wrote:

December wrote:
i've always wondered how deaf people think

This was one of the things I was thinking about when I came up with this topic. It's really hard for me to imagine how it's like not to have words to express your thoughts.

But they do have words

I know, but like, how do they "say" things inside their heads if they don't know how they sound? Like, if you are deaf, you might learn sign language, but you also learn to read. Do they think in signs, or use written words?

Ad0xa
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ad0xa wrote:

Cedence wrote:
Oh, this reminds me of the book I am reading. It's talking wildly (fictional but also rather philosophical) about the name we give things and that the moment we give a thing a name it isn't the same thing that it was before. It doesn't just exist as that thing exactly as it is, now it is different because we named it and I assume have expectations to it. Like a rose is smelling sweet so you expect it to smell sweet. But also the book felt a bit like Platon's Allegory of a Cave. And I'm not done so this may change.

I don't know what the purpose of this was. *offers*

I'm horrible with this bc I name things other names than what they actually have. XD
Especially people.

I have a very hard time remembering names for some reason. Like. People names. Animal names. Not thing names. Bc in my mind a person is names "That person I don't like" or "The person that had a green sweater the first time we met. " Not so much in words but in pictures.

Private
Queen of Pop

luminescence wrote:

Snusmumrikken wrote:

luminescence wrote:
I'm not bilingual but I studied three years in English (which is not my native language), and now my verbal thoughts are sometimes a mix of Finnish and English words and it's kinda frustrating, especially when I'm supposed to say out loud what I'm thinking. I do it unconsciously.

Then you are bilingual. Sure not in the sense that having learnt two languages simultaneously from birth but you're still significantly capable in English, thus it's a bit shady to be like yeah I amn't bilingual.

Yeah that's what I meant when I said not bilingual, but yeah my English is pretty much at the same level as my native language nowadays

Ad0xa
World famous

ad0xa wrote:

BloomCissi wrote:

Snusmumrikken wrote:

BloomCissi wrote:
This was one of the things I was thinking about when I came up with this topic. It's really hard for me to imagine how it's like not to have words to express your thoughts.

But they do have words

I know, but like, how do they "say" things inside their heads if they don't know how they sound? Like, if you are deaf, you might learn sign language, but you also learn to read. Do they think in signs, or use written words?

Maybe sort of how I name people?

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BloomCissi wrote:

ad0xa wrote:
Mostly I 'm thinking like I'm explaining something to someone.

Like I'm explaining stuff for the universe or something XD

Sometimes it's directed to a specific person. Or more like, a specific question. Sometimes it's not so much a question that someone wonders about ME but something that I wonder about the world. And then it's more like a conversation with myself. Like "it has to be like.... bc... otherwise... but what if this instead of that? " ect

I also think A LOT in pictures. Which makes it hard for me to explain my thoughts some times.... or just makes me sound stupid at first XD until they get what I mean.

Yes, I do that too! Or like, imagine having conversations with someone, but it's just a monologue. How do you think in pictures though?

Private
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wug wrote:

BloomCissi wrote:

Snusmumrikken wrote:

BloomCissi wrote:
This was one of the things I was thinking about when I came up with this topic. It's really hard for me to imagine how it's like not to have words to express your thoughts.

But they do have words

I know, but like, how do they "say" things inside their heads if they don't know how they sound? Like, if you are deaf, you might learn sign language, but you also learn to read. Do they think in signs, or use written words?

I'm too lazy to look up in my psycholinguistics book but I think I've read or heard in a lecture I've had that studies show that they "imagine" like the signs in their head like oral language users do with words. Some say they imagine "themselves" signing the words or something like that, so that's language. But it's probably individual, I assume if they acquired sign language first that's what they will picture most frequently whereas if they acquired written language that's arguably their native language so then that would be what they imagine

Ad0xa
World famous

ad0xa wrote:

BloomCissi wrote:

ad0xa wrote:
Mostly I 'm thinking like I'm explaining something to someone.

Like I'm explaining stuff for the universe or something XD

Sometimes it's directed to a specific person. Or more like, a specific question. Sometimes it's not so much a question that someone wonders about ME but something that I wonder about the world. And then it's more like a conversation with myself. Like "it has to be like.... bc... otherwise... but what if this instead of that? " ect

I also think A LOT in pictures. Which makes it hard for me to explain my thoughts some times.... or just makes me sound stupid at first XD until they get what I mean.

Yes, I do that too! Or like, imagine having conversations with someone, but it's just a monologue. How do you think in pictures though?

I just... see the picture in my mind?
And the picture has a emotional and situational meaning. Or smell. Or sound. Or whatever. It's faster than thinking in words.

Private
International star

wug wrote:

luminescence wrote:

Snusmumrikken wrote:

luminescence wrote:
I'm not bilingual but I studied three years in English (which is not my native language), and now my verbal thoughts are sometimes a mix of Finnish and English words and it's kinda frustrating, especially when I'm supposed to say out loud what I'm thinking. I do it unconsciously.

Then you are bilingual. Sure not in the sense that having learnt two languages simultaneously from birth but you're still significantly capable in English, thus it's a bit shady to be like yeah I amn't bilingual.

Yeah that's what I meant when I said not bilingual, but yeah my English is pretty much at the same level as my native language nowadays

Still bilingual tho, but I mean, I say I speak zero languages so.

Private
International star

wug wrote:

ad0xa wrote:

BloomCissi wrote:

ad0xa wrote:
Mostly I 'm thinking like I'm explaining something to someone.

Like I'm explaining stuff for the universe or something XD

Sometimes it's directed to a specific person. Or more like, a specific question. Sometimes it's not so much a question that someone wonders about ME but something that I wonder about the world. And then it's more like a conversation with myself. Like "it has to be like.... bc... otherwise... but what if this instead of that? " ect

I also think A LOT in pictures. Which makes it hard for me to explain my thoughts some times.... or just makes me sound stupid at first XD until they get what I mean.

Yes, I do that too! Or like, imagine having conversations with someone, but it's just a monologue. How do you think in pictures though?

I just... see the picture in my mind?
And the picture has a emotional and situational meaning. Or smell. Or sound. Or whatever. It's faster than thinking in words.

Do you have a structure these processes appear in?