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FT: Think without language?
Private
World famous



BloomCissi wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
luminescence wrote:
I'm not bilingual but I studied three years in English (which is not my native language), and now my verbal thoughts are sometimes a mix of Finnish and English words and it's kinda frustrating, especially when I'm supposed to say out loud what I'm thinking. I do it unconsciously.  
Then you are bilingual. Sure not in the sense that having learnt two languages simultaneously from birth but you're still significantly capable in English, thus it's a bit shady to be like yeah I amn't bilingual. 
Yeah, this. ^^

I mostly think in English nowadays, but also in Swedish. And sometimes I make a conscious effort to think in Danish, Chinese or German in order to practice.
20
Posts: 24571
Date: 31-10-2019 17:55
Ad0xa
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ad0xa wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
Yes, I do that too! Or like, imagine having conversations with someone, but it's just a monologue. How do you think in pictures though?
I just... see the picture in my mind?
And the picture has a emotional and situational meaning. Or smell. Or sound. Or whatever. It's faster than thinking in words. 
Do you have a structure these processes appear in? 
How do you mean exactly?
21
Posts: 14827
Date: 31-10-2019 17:56
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International star



wug wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
luminescence wrote:
I'm not bilingual but I studied three years in English (which is not my native language), and now my verbal thoughts are sometimes a mix of Finnish and English words and it's kinda frustrating, especially when I'm supposed to say out loud what I'm thinking. I do it unconsciously.  
Then you are bilingual. Sure not in the sense that having learnt two languages simultaneously from birth but you're still significantly capable in English, thus it's a bit shady to be like yeah I amn't bilingual. 
Yeah, this. ^^

I mostly think in English nowadays, but also in Swedish. And sometimes I make a conscious effort to think in Danish, Chinese or German in order to practice.
My thoughts are a fucking mess, my brain is like:
"Norwegian Norwegian English English French Spanish? Russian word Greek word Italian word French Norwegian Swedish for some reason Random Finnish word Norwegian English English English Norwegian French Norwegian English French" 
19
Posts: 107811
Date: 31-10-2019 17:57
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International star



wug wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
I just... see the picture in my mind?
And the picture has a emotional and situational meaning. Or smell. Or sound. Or whatever. It's faster than thinking in words. 
Do you have a structure these processes appear in? 
How do you mean exactly?
Do the pictures, emotions, smell, sounds etc come in specific orders, like if you are thinking about your childhood, let's say someone made a dish you liked and you think about that moment which I assume is a picture with emotional meaning, what would appear first, or does everything appear at the same time? 
19
Posts: 107811
Date: 31-10-2019 17:58
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BloomCissi wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
My thoughts are almost exclusively verbal, any other processes need careful attention and concentration to work. I think in multiple languages and with only one voice, I cannot understand how people can "think" or "imagine" another voice that's pretty much a mysterium to me. 
Whether it is possible to think without language is very complicated, a part of me want to say no, it's hard for me to think of a scenario with a person who thinks completely without any element of language, the only possible way that could happen given all the abstract things humans imagine, experience, feel etc. I would assume that if you think in numbers?? Maybe?? But could numbers qualify as a type of language, in programming they talk about prog languages. 
We do, however, have different ways of denoting words so given that some languages uses more abstract systems than what European languages can be claimed to use, such as logograms and stuff like that.. the most complicated of those combine several other entities. 
Perhaps if you are able to think in colours, pictures, feelings, and smells it might to some extent be possible, but as language is such a fundamental skill and people without language seem to be severely impaired by that I would argue that for those who might not have any element of language in their thoughts.. it's probably, and likely limited. 
What would be incredibly interesting is if people are able to think in the mentioned: colours, pictures, feelings, and smells, do they have a syntactic structure of this? Would it be possible to syntactically show how such thought processes would work, if so, is it really completely without language? If it proves the linguistic theory of Universal Grammar.. then it's arguably a type of language, but a type of language so removed from the forms of languages we have thus far mapped, in the mediums we have observed it: sign language, oral language, and written language. 
They do use a lot of resources in psycholinguistics, so if some people think with a very different technique than the general public, we will probably discover that within the coming decades.

God I hope this isn't too long lmao. 
I was hoping you would show up in this thread! I was reading this while doing some quick research into the topic: https://mcgovern.mit.edu/2019/05/02/ask-the-brain-can-we-think-without-language/ and I thought that was really interesting.
Anything about language and count me in lmao. 
Even people with brain disorders (developed later in their life) have some kind of mental language despite not being capable of actually talking so.. hmm.. I think for a more complex thought system if anything, syntax must be present. 
Haha, I was thinking about you when I came up with the topic of this thread!

What does syntax mean in a broader context than just grammar?
20
Posts: 24571
Date: 31-10-2019 17:58
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Queen of Pop



luminescence wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
luminescence wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
Then you are bilingual. Sure not in the sense that having learnt two languages simultaneously from birth but you're still significantly capable in English, thus it's a bit shady to be like yeah I amn't bilingual. 
Yeah that's what I meant when I said not bilingual, but yeah my English is pretty much at the same level as my native language nowadays
Still bilingual tho, but I mean, I say I speak zero languages so. 
Yes

It feels so weird because I studied three years in another language than my own and now I'm supposed to start studying in Finnish again... I could explain (in English) what some English terms mean, but I don't necessarily know them in my own language  
21
Posts: 24172
Date: 31-10-2019 17:59
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International star



wug wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
I was hoping you would show up in this thread! I was reading this while doing some quick research into the topic: https://mcgovern.mit.edu/2019/05/02/ask-the-brain-can-we-think-without-language/ and I thought that was really interesting.
Anything about language and count me in lmao. 
Even people with brain disorders (developed later in their life) have some kind of mental language despite not being capable of actually talking so.. hmm.. I think for a more complex thought system if anything, syntax must be present. 
Haha, I was thinking about you when I came up with the topic of this thread!

What does syntax mean in a broader context than just grammar?
Syntax is the structure things appear in, grammar is a part of syntax, but syntax has more levels than grammar does.
Syntax is the possible combinations of whatever element you use for language. All known languages, as far as I know, has some type of syntax. 
19
Posts: 107811
Date: 31-10-2019 17:59
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BloomCissi wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
But they do have words
I know, but like, how do they "say" things inside their heads if they don't know how they sound? Like, if you are deaf, you might learn sign language, but you also learn to read. Do they think in signs, or use written words?
I'm too lazy to look up in my psycholinguistics book but I think I've read or heard in a lecture I've had that studies show that they "imagine" like the signs in their head like oral language users do with words. Some say they imagine "themselves" signing the words or something like that, so that's language. But it's probably individual, I assume if they acquired sign language first that's what they will picture most frequently whereas if they acquired written language that's arguably their native language so then that would be what they imagine 
Oh yeah, that makes sense.
20
Posts: 24571
Date: 31-10-2019 18:00
Ad0xa
World famous



ad0xa wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
Do you have a structure these processes appear in? 
How do you mean exactly?
Do the pictures, emotions, smell, sounds etc come in specific orders, like if you are thinking about your childhood, let's say someone made a dish you liked and you think about that moment which I assume is a picture with emotional meaning, what would appear first, or does everything appear at the same time? 
ah
Well the picture is the first thing. Then you can also like "play" it as a video. 
It's weird tho bc I have some memories in first person but a lot of them are actually in 3rd person. With a sort of "blurry" me positioned somewhere in it. 
21
Posts: 14827
Date: 31-10-2019 18:00
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International star



wug wrote:
luminescence wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
luminescence wrote:
Yeah that's what I meant when I said not bilingual, but yeah my English is pretty much at the same level as my native language nowadays
Still bilingual tho, but I mean, I say I speak zero languages so. 
Yes

It feels so weird because I studied three years in another language than my own and now I'm supposed to start studying in Finnish again... I could explain (in English) what some English terms mean, but I don't necessarily know them in my own language  
It's okay, some terms are not available in a lot of languages, e.g.  pålegg, sisu 
19
Posts: 107811
Date: 31-10-2019 18:00
Private
International star



wug wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
How do you mean exactly?
Do the pictures, emotions, smell, sounds etc come in specific orders, like if you are thinking about your childhood, let's say someone made a dish you liked and you think about that moment which I assume is a picture with emotional meaning, what would appear first, or does everything appear at the same time? 
ah
Well the picture is the first thing. Then you can also like "play" it as a video. 
It's weird tho bc I have some memories in first person but a lot of them are actually in 3rd person. With a sort of "blurry" me positioned somewhere in it. 
Well, if I understood it right this kind of proves that there are some kind of underlying universal grammar in our heads 
19
Posts: 107811
Date: 31-10-2019 18:01
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BloomCissi wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
Mostly I 'm thinking like I'm explaining something to someone.

Like  I'm explaining stuff for the universe or something XD

Sometimes it's directed to a specific person. Or more like, a specific question. Sometimes it's not so much a question that someone wonders about ME but something that I wonder about the world. And then it's more like a conversation with myself. Like "it has to be like.... bc... otherwise... but what if this instead of that? " ect

I also think A LOT in pictures. Which makes it hard for me to explain my thoughts some times.... or just makes me sound stupid at first XD until they get what I mean. 
Yes, I do that too! Or like, imagine having conversations with someone, but it's just a monologue. How do you think in pictures though?
I just... see the picture in my mind?
And the picture has a emotional and situational meaning. Or smell. Or sound. Or whatever. It's faster than thinking in words. 
That's really interesting! I know people always say it's easier to memorise things in pictures, which is why a lot of memory techniques involve imagining pictures instead of words or numbers. But I feel like that would be very difficult for me, since I'm not good at picturing things in my mind.
20
Posts: 24571
Date: 31-10-2019 18:03
Ad0xa
World famous



ad0xa wrote:
But the most common thing is to mix pictures and words.
I have a lot of............... well................ flow charts in my head XD

But instead of it being like a written word in the "box" or "bubble" it's more like a concept itself. Like. The feeling/picture I've assigned to the concept. Even if it's something someone said. It would take too much space to have the whole sentence, so you reduce it to "That thing that hurt me" or "The compliment" "The thing about pumpkins".

But the flow charts makes it easier to keep track of a lot of different threads. 
21
Posts: 14827
Date: 31-10-2019 18:03
Ad0xa
World famous



ad0xa wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
Do the pictures, emotions, smell, sounds etc come in specific orders, like if you are thinking about your childhood, let's say someone made a dish you liked and you think about that moment which I assume is a picture with emotional meaning, what would appear first, or does everything appear at the same time? 
ah
Well the picture is the first thing. Then you can also like "play" it as a video. 
It's weird tho bc I have some memories in first person but a lot of them are actually in 3rd person. With a sort of "blurry" me positioned somewhere in it. 
Well, if I understood it right this kind of proves that there are some kind of underlying universal grammar in our heads 
I think so too.
Like when we talked about childhood. I remember my thoughts like I had the vocabulary that I have now. But I obviously didn't. But I could still form pretty complex thoughts. 
21
Posts: 14827
Date: 31-10-2019 18:04
Private
Queen of Pop



luminescence wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
luminescence wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
Still bilingual tho, but I mean, I say I speak zero languages so. 
Yes

It feels so weird because I studied three years in another language than my own and now I'm supposed to start studying in Finnish again... I could explain (in English) what some English terms mean, but I don't necessarily know them in my own language  
It's okay, some terms are not available in a lot of languages, e.g.  pålegg, sisu 
During one of my English classes we wrote a whole list of words that just don't have a translation to another languages. I'm too tired to think of examples so I just googled and here's some good ones

matadornetwork.com/read/15-fascinating-untranslatable-finnish-words-need-english/
21
Posts: 24172
Date: 31-10-2019 18:04
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