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FT: Think without language?
Private
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wug wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
ah
Well the picture is the first thing. Then you can also like "play" it as a video. 
It's weird tho bc I have some memories in first person but a lot of them are actually in 3rd person. With a sort of "blurry" me positioned somewhere in it. 
Well, if I understood it right this kind of proves that there are some kind of underlying universal grammar in our heads 
I think so too.
Like when we talked about childhood. I remember my thoughts like I had the vocabulary that I have now. But I obviously didn't. But I could still form pretty complex thoughts. 
That's very exciting tbh
19
Posts: 107811
Date: 31-10-2019 18:05
Ad0xa
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ad0xa wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
Yes, I do that too! Or like, imagine having conversations with someone, but it's just a monologue. How do you think in pictures though?
I just... see the picture in my mind?
And the picture has a emotional and situational meaning. Or smell. Or sound. Or whatever. It's faster than thinking in words. 
That's really interesting! I know people always say it's easier to memorise things in pictures, which is why a lot of memory techniques involve imagining pictures instead of words or numbers. But I feel like that would be very difficult for me, since I'm not good at picturing things in my mind.
This is why I rarely forget where I put things! 

But I'm super bad at remembering numbers or just words. I'm very good at remembering anything I can "take a picture of". 
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Posts: 14827
Date: 31-10-2019 18:05
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BloomCissi wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
Then you are bilingual. Sure not in the sense that having learnt two languages simultaneously from birth but you're still significantly capable in English, thus it's a bit shady to be like yeah I amn't bilingual. 
Yeah, this. ^^

I mostly think in English nowadays, but also in Swedish. And sometimes I make a conscious effort to think in Danish, Chinese or German in order to practice.
My thoughts are a fucking mess, my brain is like:
"Norwegian Norwegian English English French Spanish? Russian word Greek word Italian word French Norwegian Swedish for some reason Random Finnish word Norwegian English English English Norwegian French Norwegian English French" 
Haha, that's funny! But if you ever heard me talk at home, it would just be a mix of Danish, English, Swedish and Chinese all over the place. I code switch so much, it's a really bad habit, because instead of forcing myself to use the languages I don't know properly (Danish, and especially Chinese), I just switch to Swedish or English instead.
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Posts: 24571
Date: 31-10-2019 18:05
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wug wrote:
luminescence wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
luminescence wrote:
Yes

It feels so weird because I studied three years in another language than my own and now I'm supposed to start studying in Finnish again... I could explain (in English) what some English terms mean, but I don't necessarily know them in my own language  
It's okay, some terms are not available in a lot of languages, e.g.  pålegg, sisu 
During one of my English classes we wrote a whole list of words that just don't have a translation to another languages. I'm too tired to think of examples so I just googled and here's some good ones

matadornetwork.com/read/15-fascinating-untranslatable-finnish-words-need-english/
fun!
19
Posts: 107811
Date: 31-10-2019 18:06
Ad0xa
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ad0xa wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
Well, if I understood it right this kind of proves that there are some kind of underlying universal grammar in our heads 
I think so too.
Like when we talked about childhood. I remember my thoughts like I had the vocabulary that I have now. But I obviously didn't. But I could still form pretty complex thoughts. 
That's very exciting tbh
I know right? I've thought about this a lot before.
But I'm not 100% it's really how it is XD 
Since memory is so........ unpredictably? Or like. Not certain. 
21
Posts: 14827
Date: 31-10-2019 18:07
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BloomCissi wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
Anything about language and count me in lmao. 
Even people with brain disorders (developed later in their life) have some kind of mental language despite not being capable of actually talking so.. hmm.. I think for a more complex thought system if anything, syntax must be present. 
Haha, I was thinking about you when I came up with the topic of this thread!

What does syntax mean in a broader context than just grammar?
Syntax is the structure things appear in, grammar is a part of syntax, but syntax has more levels than grammar does.
Syntax is the possible combinations of whatever element you use for language. All known languages, as far as I know, has some type of syntax. 
Oh, okay, so it basically means structure? Like, some kind of more or less coherent system that serves as sort of the base?
20
Posts: 24571
Date: 31-10-2019 18:08
Ad0xa
World famous



ad0xa wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
luminescence wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
Still bilingual tho, but I mean, I say I speak zero languages so. 
Yes

It feels so weird because I studied three years in another language than my own and now I'm supposed to start studying in Finnish again... I could explain (in English) what some English terms mean, but I don't necessarily know them in my own language  
It's okay, some terms are not available in a lot of languages, e.g.  pålegg, sisu 
My friend uses the word sisu ALL the time XD 
21
Posts: 14827
Date: 31-10-2019 18:08
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BloomCissi wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
But the most common thing is to mix pictures and words.
I have a lot of............... well................ flow charts in my head XD

But instead of it being like a written word in the "box" or "bubble" it's more like a concept itself. Like. The feeling/picture I've assigned to the concept. Even if it's something someone said. It would take too much space to have the whole sentence, so you reduce it to "That thing that hurt me" or "The compliment" "The thing about pumpkins".

But the flow charts makes it easier to keep track of a lot of different threads. 
Your mind sounds like a very interesting place to be.
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Posts: 24571
Date: 31-10-2019 18:09
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BloomCissi wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
I just... see the picture in my mind?
And the picture has a emotional and situational meaning. Or smell. Or sound. Or whatever. It's faster than thinking in words. 
That's really interesting! I know people always say it's easier to memorise things in pictures, which is why a lot of memory techniques involve imagining pictures instead of words or numbers. But I feel like that would be very difficult for me, since I'm not good at picturing things in my mind.
This is why I rarely forget where I put things! 

But I'm super bad at remembering numbers or just words. I'm very good at remembering anything I can "take a picture of". 
Does that mean "photographic memory" is actually a thing then?
20
Posts: 24571
Date: 31-10-2019 18:11
Ad0xa
World famous



ad0xa wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
But the most common thing is to mix pictures and words.
I have a lot of............... well................ flow charts in my head XD

But instead of it being like a written word in the "box" or "bubble" it's more like a concept itself. Like. The feeling/picture I've assigned to the concept. Even if it's something someone said. It would take too much space to have the whole sentence, so you reduce it to "That thing that hurt me" or "The compliment" "The thing about pumpkins".

But the flow charts makes it easier to keep track of a lot of different threads. 
Your mind sounds like a very interesting place to be.
I think any other mind than your own would be really interesting regardless XD

My mind is not that nice to be in tbh. I get interrupted all the time in my thoughts bc of add. 
Or high bloodsugar.
Most day's my brain feels like syrup. 
21
Posts: 14827
Date: 31-10-2019 18:11
Ad0xa
World famous



ad0xa wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
ad0xa wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
That's really interesting! I know people always say it's easier to memorise things in pictures, which is why a lot of memory techniques involve imagining pictures instead of words or numbers. But I feel like that would be very difficult for me, since I'm not good at picturing things in my mind.
This is why I rarely forget where I put things! 

But I'm super bad at remembering numbers or just words. I'm very good at remembering anything I can "take a picture of". 
Does that mean "photographic memory" is actually a thing then?
I dunnu! But it's not what I have XD
I could maybe give you a vague sketch of the "picture" but I wouldn't be able to recall all of the things.
21
Posts: 14827
Date: 31-10-2019 18:13
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wug wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
Haha, I was thinking about you when I came up with the topic of this thread!

What does syntax mean in a broader context than just grammar?
Syntax is the structure things appear in, grammar is a part of syntax, but syntax has more levels than grammar does.
Syntax is the possible combinations of whatever element you use for language. All known languages, as far as I know, has some type of syntax. 
Oh, okay, so it basically means structure? Like, some kind of more or less coherent system that serves as sort of the base?
yeah
19
Posts: 107811
Date: 31-10-2019 18:33
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wug wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
BloomCissi wrote:
Snusmumrikken wrote:
Syntax is the structure things appear in, grammar is a part of syntax, but syntax has more levels than grammar does.
Syntax is the possible combinations of whatever element you use for language. All known languages, as far as I know, has some type of syntax. 
Oh, okay, so it basically means structure? Like, some kind of more or less coherent system that serves as sort of the base?
yeah
We have languages like the Chinese languages (I don't remember which of them that's the most analytic) where inflection pretty much do not exist, there's no grammatical features added onto words so the structure of the sentence means everything. Then we have languages at the other end of the scale (though no one is as extreme as the most extreme Chinese languages) where all that "extra" information is added onto the words, such as case, gender, person, causality, tempus, aspect, reason etc., that too is syntax, as it cannot be added randomly. Morphology and syntax are often treated and taught as the same subject because regardless of how little some might want that - they are impossible to 100% separate. 
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Posts: 107811
Date: 31-10-2019 18:36
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Troublemaker wrote:
i have debates, discussions, you name it, in my brain like all the time 
i'm hilarious so of course i'd talk to myself, duh
and yeah they can think without language, but i suppose they connect with pictures, memories etc instead of like words. so it's more.. indirect. 
20
Posts: 53710
Date: 31-10-2019 19:11
Account deleted




wrote:
well yeah, infants think without language and animals too. humans raised in the wild have no language but they'll know hunger and fatigue and they'll know that eating will make them not hungry, and sleeping will make them not tired. but will they be able to tell someone that, no.  language is just how we express thought.


yes but not just myself, if i'm thinking about something someone said to me or a song it'll be their voice, if i'm quoting them in my head  
Date: 31-10-2019 21:26
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