5 am philosophical debate - Forum

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devilcake wrote:

Maxwell wrote:
I keep reading Sam philosophical debate Im like what did I do!

Me too hshdjfk

Chat0yant
World Famous

Chat0yant wrote:

Maxwell wrote:
I keep reading Sam philosophical debate Im like what did I do!

LOL i guess this ties into writing numbers badly, I do write my 5 like S sometimes too.....

Chat0yant
World Famous

Chat0yant wrote:

elisia wrote:

devilcake wrote:
One thing I will say in favour of the payealling (gasp I know this coming from me) is scientific articles are somewhat protected by the paywalled because It allows them to allocate funds to peer reviews and making sure only well made research is published

A lot of these articles authors (not all obviously) will send you the article if you email them and ask? A lot of those sites dont give commission to the authors, theyre paid a flat rate then the host platform pockets the profit

(My professor had a paper that he wrote be published by a news company, and he was not thrilled with how it worked, of course thats just one example)

I have never heard of this before

that's so interesting to know. I never knew you could ask for them like that!

Chat0yant
World Famous

Chat0yant wrote:

devilcake wrote:
One thing I will say in favour of the payealling (gasp I know this coming from me) is scientific articles are somewhat protected by the paywalled because It allows them to allocate funds to peer reviews and making sure only well made research is published

again in the most ideal world this would not be an issue. And im still in favour of pirating them if you are a private person who isn’t going to use it for quoting n research and just want to read to inform yourself. But scientific journal integrity is in a super scary situation rn bc of AI and publication slop so for me subscribing to journals is something I would happily fo if I wasn’t poor as shit

I feel like the two aren't always mutually exclusive though? In college I would write papers on topics I liked but be unable to read/use in my research paper interesting articles because they were pay walled. But yeah, integrity for a lot of things is....perilous right now

Private
Youtube Star

devilcake wrote:

Chat0yant wrote:

devilcake wrote:
One thing I will say in favour of the payealling (gasp I know this coming from me) is scientific articles are somewhat protected by the paywalled because It allows them to allocate funds to peer reviews and making sure only well made research is published

again in the most ideal world this would not be an issue. And im still in favour of pirating them if you are a private person who isn’t going to use it for quoting n research and just want to read to inform yourself. But scientific journal integrity is in a super scary situation rn bc of AI and publication slop so for me subscribing to journals is something I would happily fo if I wasn’t poor as shit

I feel like the two aren't always mutually exclusive though? In college I would write papers on topics I liked but be unable to read/use in my research paper interesting articles because they were pay walled. But yeah, integrity for a lot of things is....perilous right now

Were you not able to acces the papers through you uni / request them as a uni student?

the reason I said if you were to use them in a research paper (at least a published one, I don’t think a random essays really matter) is that it could probably get more legally dubious (not a moral question in this case)and in that case it’s more for your own protection and to keep the legal integrity of the research

like I said to the Elisia, I just wanted to point out that it isn’t necessarily without reason. Should the information be free yes absolutely, is the paywall the best way to protect scientific articles, no, is there an argument to be made for why they are there, yes.

Chat0yant
World Famous

Chat0yant wrote:

devilcake wrote:

Chat0yant wrote:

devilcake wrote:

sorry I meant that i am not going to compromise my beliefs just because "everyone is doing it" i.e. i'm not going to start pirating just because some random youtube comments say "oh it's fine i do it" not that i made this thread not wanting to hear others opinions and reasoning and, potentially, changing my beliefs if i find others make good points.

also... i literally said i'm not judging my friends i just don't personally want to do it and it sounds like i could have worded it better? because the paragraph before all is /neu you seem to think i'm saying the opposite? or at least it feels very angry to me and i'm not sure what i said that was disagreeing with that? maybe i'm just socially inept, nvmd

also i'm not sure if it can be considered "correct" if it's literally illegal? I mean, i'm half saying and half asking, since this is a discussion thread and i've said i'm kinda on the fence...

also maybe internet-ally inept so um... what is /neu... and maybe /nbr and /gen...? i see people use these /*insert words* and never learned what they were... is it like how you'd say #boomer or r/eyebleach kind of thing?

They are tonetags because people on here always read me as agressive when that’s just how I speak but ig that doesn’t work either e_e if you google tone tags list you will get a list for common ones

anyways I do think even if you don’t intend to be, it does read as judgemental, at least if I were your friend I would feel like you were being judgemental (especially with the addition to weedees post), and would probably maybe distance myself from you because I don’t vibe with people who aren’t as anti capitalist as me…. But that’s just me n we aren’t friends so it’s w/e

the correct is as in morally/ethically correct. Things that are legal can be wrong, and things that are illegal can be right. And also just like a silly turn of phrase for asserting something is good to me so…

Honestly, it feels like you are able to reason why it’s okay yourself (all the reasons you listed), you just don’t want to do it yourself because, I don’t see you stating a reason for it other than your own value. Which again if you don’t want to do it don’t do it. And maybe examine why your values oppose it?

(I am not angry I am being neutral im just explaining my thoughts and im writing this in place of tone tags)

I guess one major reason is the "two wrongs don't make a right" cliche. I believe stealing is wrong. I believe stealing people's creations are wrong. As such, does the distributers, industry standards, questionable laws, etc. just absolve me of any wrong doing? I.e. is stealing from the corrupt wrong? I wouldn't go steal a car from a drug dealer because they got it with subpar ethics, so why would I go steal a game from a company because i disagree with their distribution terms?

I also don't want to lower my standards that easily, if that makes sense? I don't want "because everyone is doing it" or "someone said is ok so i'll just change my beliefs to their beliefs because their beliefs are more convenient" to be all it takes to lower the bar for my own actions and outlook on the world. Again, not trying to judge people who genuinely believe its ok, but I don't genuinely (or at least completely) believe its ok, so I don't want to just shove my conscience away when it's being inconvenient.

I also believe, even if I don't agree with the people or laws in powers, they should be respected, to some extent at least. I don't think "there is corruption" is an excuse for full on anarchy. If something is wrong, something should be done to try and change it, but that doesn't mean just ignore everything any and all authority says and do whatever because they suck. I don't want to sink to their level and just disregard the people and laws that exist, I would want to find a legal, civil way to protest and/or change those laws and/or people. Is that possible? Maybe, maybe not unfortunately.

But at that point, as everyone has pointed out, I could just not use the services and also not pirate the content and just not have it. That is a valid option and in most cases what I do. I'm not trying to say i'm entitled to a perfect solution or better than everyone because of my beliefs.

Chat0yant
World Famous

Chat0yant wrote:

devilcake wrote:

Chat0yant wrote:

devilcake wrote:
One thing I will say in favour of the payealling (gasp I know this coming from me) is scientific articles are somewhat protected by the paywalled because It allows them to allocate funds to peer reviews and making sure only well made research is published

again in the most ideal world this would not be an issue. And im still in favour of pirating them if you are a private person who isn’t going to use it for quoting n research and just want to read to inform yourself. But scientific journal integrity is in a super scary situation rn bc of AI and publication slop so for me subscribing to journals is something I would happily fo if I wasn’t poor as shit

I feel like the two aren't always mutually exclusive though? In college I would write papers on topics I liked but be unable to read/use in my research paper interesting articles because they were pay walled. But yeah, integrity for a lot of things is....perilous right now

Were you not able to acces the papers through you uni / request them as a uni student?

the reason I said if you were to use them in a research paper (at least a published one, I don’t think a random essays really matter) is that it could probably get more legally dubious (not a moral question in this case)and in that case it’s more for your own protection and to keep the legal integrity of the research

like I said to the Elisia, I just wanted to point out that it isn’t necessarily without reason. Should the information be free yes absolutely, is the paywall the best way to protect scientific articles, no, is there an argument to be made for why they are there, yes.

Most i could access with my university credentials, some were paywalled even then.

But yes, I do agree about integrity concerns... research based on research based on research.... can also get really iffy scientifically as well, to the point where it starts to get questionable what you can trust or consider primary research and that's also not great...

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Minister of Pop

Heartbroken wrote:

devilcake wrote:

Maxwell wrote:
I keep reading Sam philosophical debate Im like what did I do!

Me too hshdjfk

same

Chat0yant
World Famous

Chat0yant wrote:

Heartbroken wrote:

devilcake wrote:

Maxwell wrote:
I keep reading Sam philosophical debate Im like what did I do!

Me too hshdjfk

same

ok i fixed it fam

Private
World Famous

remains wrote:
piracy saves art i love piracy

any stealing analogies are incredibly stupid to me. there's a reason "you wouldnt download a car" is memed so hard, downloading a movie doesnt delete that file from someone else. it also doesn't take away from movie theaters or studios or big corpos because the options are a) pirate the thing or b) never watch it. going to the movies was never on the table in the first place
artist and people actually making the things tend to be for piracy because they want more people to enjoy the thing they made + in some cases they already got paid and wont receive residuals. the only people losing anything are people only interested in making money and not art

cant imagine how much less fulfilling my childhood wouldve been without piracy, out of like.. 250-300 video games i played as a kid, i can think of 3 that weren't pirated

Private
World Famous

remains wrote:
at least u dont think that pirating is the reason why big conglomerates shut down tv series, like some idiot corpo dickriders ive witnessed

Private
Youtube Star

devilcake wrote:

Chat0yant wrote:

devilcake wrote:

Chat0yant wrote:
sorry I meant that i am not going to compromise my beliefs just because "everyone is doing it" i.e. i'm not going to start pirating just because some random youtube comments say "oh it's fine i do it" not that i made this thread not wanting to hear others opinions and reasoning and, potentially, changing my beliefs if i find others make good points.

also... i literally said i'm not judging my friends i just don't personally want to do it and it sounds like i could have worded it better? because the paragraph before all is /neu you seem to think i'm saying the opposite? or at least it feels very angry to me and i'm not sure what i said that was disagreeing with that? maybe i'm just socially inept, nvmd

also i'm not sure if it can be considered "correct" if it's literally illegal? I mean, i'm half saying and half asking, since this is a discussion thread and i've said i'm kinda on the fence...

also maybe internet-ally inept so um... what is /neu... and maybe /nbr and /gen...? i see people use these /*insert words* and never learned what they were... is it like how you'd say #boomer or r/eyebleach kind of thing?

They are tonetags because people on here always read me as agressive when that’s just how I speak but ig that doesn’t work either e_e if you google tone tags list you will get a list for common ones

anyways I do think even if you don’t intend to be, it does read as judgemental, at least if I were your friend I would feel like you were being judgemental (especially with the addition to weedees post), and would probably maybe distance myself from you because I don’t vibe with people who aren’t as anti capitalist as me…. But that’s just me n we aren’t friends so it’s w/e

the correct is as in morally/ethically correct. Things that are legal can be wrong, and things that are illegal can be right. And also just like a silly turn of phrase for asserting something is good to me so…

Honestly, it feels like you are able to reason why it’s okay yourself (all the reasons you listed), you just don’t want to do it yourself because, I don’t see you stating a reason for it other than your own value. Which again if you don’t want to do it don’t do it. And maybe examine why your values oppose it?

(I am not angry I am being neutral im just explaining my thoughts and im writing this in place of tone tags)

I guess one major reason is the "two wrongs don't make a right" cliche. I believe stealing is wrong. I believe stealing people's creations are wrong. As such, does the distributers, industry standards, questionable laws, etc. just absolve me of any wrong doing? I.e. is stealing from the corrupt wrong? I wouldn't go steal a car from a drug dealer because they got it with subpar ethics, so why would I go steal a game from a company because i disagree with their distribution terms?

I also don't want to lower my standards that easily, if that makes sense? I don't want "because everyone is doing it" or "someone said is ok so i'll just change my beliefs to their beliefs because their beliefs are more convenient" to be all it takes to lower the bar for my own actions and outlook on the world. Again, not trying to judge people who genuinely believe its ok, but I don't genuinely (or at least completely) believe its ok, so I don't want to just shove my conscience away when it's being inconvenient.

I also believe, even if I don't agree with the people or laws in powers, they should be respected, to some extent at least. I don't think "there is corruption" is an excuse for full on anarchy. If something is wrong, something should be done to try and change it, but that doesn't mean just ignore everything any and all authority says and do whatever because they suck. I don't want to sink to their level and just disregard the people and laws that exist, I would want to find a legal, civil way to protest and/or change those laws and/or people. Is that possible? Maybe, maybe not unfortunately.

But at that point, as everyone has pointed out, I could just not use the services and also not pirate the content and just not have it. That is a valid option and in most cases what I do. I'm not trying to say i'm entitled to a perfect solution or better than everyone because of my beliefs.

one big thing thats important to recognize is that piracy is that people who pirate something would not have bought that piece of media in the first place, whether its is for financial, ethical or political reason. It's money neither the creator nor a corporation would have made anyways, nor is it something you are taking from their possesion, so saying its 1:1 the same as theft is not entirely accurate imo.
On the topic of theft, you might want to consider why you view theft is inherently "wrong" (in the society we live in) or maybe rather, not okay. Like the basic example is shop lifting from a chain store because you are struggling financially. It is not something they should have had to do in the first place if they had adequate support/fair pay/etcetc, but since that isnt the case, the theft is okay and doesnt cause anyone harm.

(to tie into the piracy, if you dont want to do it yourself, consider not doing it but letting others do it the same as turning a blind eye to someone shoplifting because theyre poor, or dumpster diving to reduce food waste, or protesting on private grounds. )
if you want a concrete example of situations where you might want to pirate a piece of media just because you disagree with X thing: either, as you mentioned, abandonware, or, if you want to consume/support an older piece of media but the company that currently owns it is deplorable, or you want to consume/support media by a creator but the media was maden under a company label (ie shows made by queer creator, that are being made by but also censored by and cancelled by disney).

if you do actually disagree with the people or laws in power, who are in the world we live in today largely capitalist billionaires or people being supported by or otherwise encouraged to keep a society that exploits the working class going, sentiments like "not stooping to their level" or being "civil" is very naive and idealistic.

(actually the word choice civil is something you might want to consider why/how its used in this sort of contexts since it is often a concept used by opressor group to discredit outrage. inserting mandatory, i know you did not intend that, but im mentioning this just to examplify how discouraging being more radical is used to oppose progressive movements ).

When the people opressing others are the law makers, there is no way to do this in a completely "civil" way. Those in power do not care about stooping to a low level, and resisting that is not the same thing as stooping to their level, the two "wrongs" arent equal. Like, resisting arrest when protesting for human rights is not the same as commiting human right violations in the first place. Its an extreme example obviously, but nothing exists in a vaccuum, and piracy is a response to capitalism, it all ties together one way or another.

remember that allowing capitalists and opressors etc to keep doing what theyre doing is being complicit! You dont have to pirate to be anti capitalist, if you choose to not buy or fund the media whose terms/whatever else you disagree with thats a way to do it to, but i do implore you to move away from the value judgement on piracy as a wrong doing/theft/bad thing while you are doing it .

If you cannot view piracy as a good thing, maybe consider viewing it as a neutral thing, rather than wrong/bad, n that might help with the friction it can cause between friends who pirate.

sorry this is very anti-capitalism 101 not just about piracy, i kind of act under the assumption bc of veepe demographic that ppl here strive to not be complicit in capitalism to the degree they can. its a good thing to not just want to flip the switch on an issue without thinking about why n how first, so in that way im glad u made a thread to see other thoughts. I hope ull consider being more anti capitalist in the future... i used to be very rule follower autist in a lot of aspects, but the more political i get and the worse the world gets the more i realise u cannot be that while also aiming for change.

on a related but other note, i think if you want to specifically protect artists and thats where part of this is coming for, some more productive thing to feel passionate about would be people redistributing/rposting art and media that is already avaliable for free without the artists permission (as this gives the artist less control of how its used and it can be put on platforms that sell their pictures to ex ai), and for sites and social medias to allow artist to keep their rights to the art they post, and protecting artist rights to their own creations in general ^w^

Elisia
Youtube Star

elisia wrote:
Biggest downside of piracy that i found is some artists (talking about manga SPECIFICALLY here) stop making their manga because its not being read officially.

Yakuza fiance is on indefinite hiatus because it was not being purchased and the author was not making money from the pirated sites and translators.

Skip beat releases 1 chapter every like 3 months because it is only released in the shojo beat magazine, which is being less and less sought after. Because of this the author receives little to no traction on their series, because the magazine is publishing it, it is being included less and less. Even though the fans that I know who love it LOVE IT

The same as rhe last, happened with yona of the dawn. One chapter every 6 months. It is JUST now finishing up

Imo supporting the ARTIST is more important than supporting the DISTRIBUTOR.
A really good example of a series that got pirated but BENEFITED
Would be green lesbians. The Guy i Was Into Wasn't a Guy at All.
It started on TWITTER. And because of the reposts and shares its not becoming an anime
I dont think this could've happened if it wasnt reshared on questionable sites. Because many dont use twitter

Private
Popstar

ouch wrote:
I pirate movies/tv shows I can't find elsewhere, but not books (actually except 1 book the other day because its literally impossible to find a physical copy that isn't sold for 200$+ and it wasn't available on kindle)